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Another Hide Glue question !!
http://www-.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=5747		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  RussellR [ Mon Mar 20, 2006 10:20 am ]
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Sorry Guys

I have probably bored you all to death with my questions about hide glue, but I was wondering is there any limit to the amount of times you casn reheat it ?

The other thing I wondered is I've tasken to having it sitting there ready in the pot, so I put it on in the morning, and take it out and put it in the fridge, in the evening.

Is it a good practice to keep heated all day, or should I just heat it at the point I need it ?

Many Thanks for your help and patience.
Author:  MSpencer [ Mon Mar 20, 2006 10:22 am ]
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Great question, I am doing my first build with Hide Glue and am also interested in these handling questions

Mike
White Oak, Texas
Author:  Frank Ford [ Mon Mar 20, 2006 11:04 am ]
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Heating glue for long periods definitely degrades the glue. Heat it for a
couple of weeks at 145 degrees and you'll pretty much wipe it out. That,
in fact, is THE reason we talk about not overheating the glue. The idea
that it should not be heated above 145 is based on the commercial use of
the glue in which the pot is under heat for the entire work day.

So, if you want to be ultra conservative, just heat a bit as you use it, and
you'll never go wrong, and you'll never have to worry about the precision
of temperature.

Here's the classic scenario. A sizeable batch of glue is mixed with the
appropriate amount of water, allowed to absorb, and heated to make it
creamy and smooth. Then, the gel is placed in a refrigerator for future
use. On Monday morning, the gel gets dumped into the glue pot and the
heat is maintained at 145. As the glue is used, more is added. As the
glue dries, water is added. Monday night, the glue pot is turned off. On
subsequent mornings the glue pot is turned on, off again at night. On
Friday night, the glue is dumped and the pot cleaned. Bear in mind, that
this schedule is for a production shop where a fair amount of glue is used
so that on Friday, the glue would not actually be a week old.

That glue schedule was given to me by Ellsworth Bush, who worked in the
glue room at Martin's old factory.
Author:  JJ Donohue [ Mon Mar 20, 2006 12:30 pm ]
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Russell...I can't speak with authority on the heating limits but I can tell you that I minimize the heat history by only using small amounts at a time. I store HHG in small bottles and only heat as needed. Since I only make 3 or four guitars a year, I don't have a need for heating every day. The glue is heated only for an hour or 2 at most for the various operations (braces, kerfed liners, tops and backs and bridges. I use most of it after heating a bottle and toss the rest.
Author:  arvey [ Mon Mar 20, 2006 1:00 pm ]
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I also store my hide glue in small bottles but store the bottles in the frezer. I then use one bottle at a time and just heat it up when I need some. The bottle stayes in the shop but isn't heated all day, just turned off an on a few times a day as needed.
Author:  MSpencer [ Mon Mar 20, 2006 1:40 pm ]
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I'm a new convert from Titebond to HHG, so, mix with water at the prescribed level (it states 50/50 on the can, Behlen brand). put in the small 1-2 oz squeeze bottles with the pointed end and then freeze. When I am ready to glue up my build, pull one, heat to 145 and then apply, do all I am going to do and then since so little will likely be left over throw the remainder away? or let sit and cool and then freeze remainder again until the next need occurs?

I don't have those sensitive scales, I seem to recall a thread that someone mixed water until it was the consistency of honey, does that sound right?

Mike
White Oak, Texas

Author:  arvey [ Mon Mar 20, 2006 4:39 pm ]
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Best to mix by weight as the hide glue gets more powdery as you get down in the granuels, But when first mixed up with the water and allowed to absorb the water it sort of looks like dry fish eggs if that helps. It doesn't get the runny consistancy until it is heated for a bit. Our honey is creamed so I can't compare it with that but it can be compared to syrop if that helps. I also find that it is easier to work with if you make it up one day (Mix water and Hide glue, let sit for a few hours, heat to 140-145) and then let it sit for a day before heating back up to use. I am surprised to hear of a 50 50 mix but each supplier is different. I use a ratio of 10:18, glue to water. Frank Fords site has an excelent section on Hide glue if people are interested. here
Once you hav used it a lot you can just pour it together and get it right. I never once saw my granfather measure the stuff but his was always perfect. Of course back then I figured he was crazy to use that out dated stuff instead of the new Glues. Wish I had paid better attention now arvey38797.0293865741
Author:  tl507362 [ Tue Mar 21, 2006 3:52 am ]
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I don't measure anything either. I make one big batch in a baby food jar by just mixing the water and granules 50/50, or about when the water just covers the crystals. I let it sit for 15-30 min, then start heating up to 145. I let this cook until the granules all melt. Then I add more water or more glue until I get the consistency like warm syrup. I let it cook for another 20 min or so, then pour it into one of those small plastic bottles with the red tip. I put it in the fridge until I need it. I heat for about 20 min before use, and if I won't need it for awhile, I put it back in the fridge. So far I've had good luck with it. I only use it for braces and bridge. Everything else is with titebond. Good luck!
Tracy
Author:  arvey [ Tue Mar 21, 2006 5:12 am ]
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Does anyone else freeze their extra glue?
Author:  Serge Poirier [ Tue Mar 21, 2006 5:14 am ]
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I do!
Author:  JJ Donohue [ Tue Mar 21, 2006 5:31 am ]
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I freeze HHG in the small bottles. I double wrap the bottles to protect from freezer burn (dehydration). 9 months and it still works effectively when warmed up. I stopped testing there because I ran out of frozen glue.

I've never tried re-freezing after heating since I just either toss it or refrigerate until it grows mold. The small bottles are the key for my schedule.
Author:  Colin S [ Tue Mar 21, 2006 8:15 am ]
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When I make up a batch of hide glue I put it into a spare ice cube tray and when it has gelled it goes in the freezer in sealed freezer bags. Take out a cube when I need it, heat it up and dilute to the viscosity I want (I make mine up 1:1). At the end of the day any left over gets put on the garden - it's a good source of nitrogen!

Colin
Author:  Mario [ Tue Mar 21, 2006 9:50 am ]
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I freeze also...

Make sure the freezer bag has as little air left as possible. Freezer burn is real....

My leftovers go to my dogs; they go nuts for it!
Author:  Serge Poirier [ Tue Mar 21, 2006 10:04 am ]
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Mario, i put mine in a plastic container, is that sufficient protection?
Author:  Mjoy [ Tue Mar 21, 2006 10:11 am ]
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If you only need a small amount, get yourself a really cheap egg poacher ( a very small double-boiler) that you heat on a burner. You can heat enough to do an x-brace and maybe a couple finger braces; or a bridge, etc. You can easily mix more if you are doing sveral small jobs, it only take 15-20 minutes from dry to usable. You can probably pick one up for about $2-3 dollars.

By using smaller bottles in a Rival or similar hot-pot you can accomplish the same thing.

Why ever store it? don't mix more than you need.
Author:  Mario [ Tue Mar 21, 2006 10:59 am ]
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Why ever store it?

There's evidence that heating the glue, and letting it cool and gel, then re-heating it makes it stronger.

Besides, freezing it is a proven safe method. I make about a quarter pound at a time, and that lasts me about 4-6 weeks. Only have to make one batch instead of, oh, 30-40 of them, this way.

Some of us use a lot more glue than you think <bg>

Serge, if you get freezer burn, you'll knwo it right away; if your container has been doing the job, then it's fine. I just use the Glad freezer bags, and squeeze as much air out of it every time I put it back in. Every now and again, the bag will open(I guees I didn't zip it coccretly) and that's when I get freezer burn. the glue gets dry feeling and crusty, and won't re-melt correctly; if that happens, trash it and start over. No big deal...
Author:  MSpencer [ Tue Mar 21, 2006 1:18 pm ]
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Thanks for all of your ideas and answering our questions, I think I can proceed with a higher level of confidence. I am first using HHG on bracing and the bridge, if this goes OK then I may step out into some of the other areas as well, crawl before I walk completely away from Titebond.

Thanks

Mike
White Oak, Texas
Author:  arvey [ Tue Mar 21, 2006 1:47 pm ]
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If you want good well prepared glue it takes more than 15-20 minutes. Everything I have read suggests soaking the Dry for at least an hour before heating and as Mario said, evidence suggests that heating the Glue and then letting it gel and reheating it makes it stronger. If you are going to Make it this way it takes some time, one days worth and on e months worth takes the same amout of time. I use the small squeeze bottles, filled to the top and then in a freezer bag. I tried the ice cube tray method once and then in a bag with as little air as possible but by the end they were Freezer Burt.
Author:  Serge Poirier [ Tue Mar 21, 2006 2:58 pm ]
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Thanks Mario, i should be ok then with my thick plastic container but i'll check from time to time, seems i'm a lot slower at building this time around, don't know why.......
Author:  SniderMike [ Tue Mar 21, 2006 4:15 pm ]
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What a bunch of great info! What gram strength does everyone use though?

Mike
Author:  Serge Poirier [ Tue Mar 21, 2006 4:23 pm ]
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Mike, 192g seems to be the favorite around here, i use 260g from Lee Valley and i'm plenty satisfied!
Author:  JJ Donohue [ Tue Mar 21, 2006 4:54 pm ]
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Serge...Just curious...what advantages does 260g have over 192g? I never tried the higher gram stuff and was wondering why you prefer it over the 192?
Author:  Serge Poirier [ Tue Mar 21, 2006 4:59 pm ]
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Hi JJ, Mario would be the expert on HHG,but i think mine is stronger though it only gives you less time to clamp things up, just a matter of doing dry runs for safety!
Author:  JJ Donohue [ Tue Mar 21, 2006 5:09 pm ]
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Any idea what the difference in working time is? I have about 30 to 45 seconds with the 192 gram stuff. I wouldn't want to reduce that too much...especially for tops and backs.
Author:  Serge Poirier [ Tue Mar 21, 2006 5:24 pm ]
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Can't remember if it was 15-20 seconds but even for me, on my very first glue up of top and back plates and dry runs prior to glueing, i had enough time, never saw a glue bond so strong that fast before. I just wish Mario could chime in, he had bought it in the past and had found it good, he would sure tell ya that it's more time than needed also!
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